Thursday, September 25, 2003
3:00 p.m.; CSU 202
In attendance: Stephen Bohnenblust, Roger Severns,
Paul Hustoles (recorder), Stewart Ross, Barbara Keating, Sonja Meiers,
Pat
Earle, Don Larsson, Dick Swanson, Don Descy, Gregg Marg, Wayne Allen,
Joanna
Mink, Dick Liebendorfer (for Ron Nickerson), Daardi Sizemore, Nina
LeNoir, Mark
McCullough, Lisa Baures.
Guests: Georgia
Holmes; for
a limited time, Vice President Dean Trauger and Dean Michael Miller.
The meeting was
called to
order at 3:04 p.m.
1.
Minutes
of September 11, 2003:Severns/Larsson
moved to approve. Passed.
2.
Call for
Additional Items/ Reordering of Agenda:President Bohnenblust has
invited members of the
Administration to attend this meeting at 3:30 p.m. to discuss some
unsettling
correspondence proposed by Dean Miller, which contradicts our
understanding of
current policy. Discussion
followed until the arrival of Dean Miller and Vice President Dean
Trauger at
3:31 p.m. Bohnenblust thanked
Trauger and Miller for joining us and asked if there was anything they
wanted
to comment upon.
Trauger: We can start by
looking at the communication that took
place. Bohnenblust, Severns and I
had a good meeting yesterday with a good understanding about how we
would move
forward. What I didn't know at
that time was that there was a phone conversation on Friday. That Friday conversation was what
precipitated the Miller letter.
The Monday meeting had different outcomes about how we would
approach
this issue. There was no intent on
anyone's part in challenging the ultimate decision.
Miller (to Trauger): Tell us what decisions were made. Trauger: I think we agreed that it
(policy) wasn't clear and we felt that it was important that students
know how
we were moving forward. We agreed
to develop something that would clearly communicate to students how
they would
get their check ride. It would be
their option to schedule it through Mankato Aviation or on their own. The caveat was that if they went
through Mankato Aviation, then MSU would reimburse the cost. If they went on their own, then they
would be on their own. Even though
the check rides are in the contract, I was hopeful we could get Mankato
Aviation to go along with that proposal.
Bohnenblust: You are referring to FAA check rides?
Trauger: Yes. Bohnenblust: We have
a slightly different position on how
these would work into the program.
The letter implies that this is a done deal.
Trauger: I didn't have the time to give Miller the "head's
up."
Miller: I can go back now.
There have been a variety of meetings that have been very
fruitful and
collaborative. At a previous
meeting, our understanding was filled with teacher education metaphors. We have course work that leads to the
ability to apply for licensure, but one would not have to take that
step. This looks to be the desirable
outcome
of the contract. It is my
understanding that the contract limited us from going to that quickly. Holmes: I don't see anything in the
contract that would prevent this.
Miller: At that time, that was the premise.
We have talked about, as we move ahead with the program
right now, how we might want to renegotiate the contract.
On Friday morning, I met with Mankato
Aviation and their understanding was that the FAA check ride was indeed
part of
the course work. Friday afternoon
we met with everyone available.
One of the issues was that we had a student who had an FAA check
ride and
was not going to be able to get a grade.
The students should be at the center of what we do.
I tried to figure out how to minimize
the challenges that students would have, and any potential lawsuits. So I wanted to send a letter to clarify
the policy. The conversation that
you (FA) have had with Trauger has a different outcome.
The letters were not sent. What we
are doing at this point is that
we will operate with this new understanding and we will try to move
forward. We are trying to look
into any and all cases. We are
trying to get everyone at the table so we can make consistent decisions. I am hopeful that there are no other
students out there who are having this challenge. We
will try to continue to collaborate.
Bohnenblust: It is still our
contention that the FAA check rides
are not part of the curriculum.
Where are you on that?
Trauger: Hopefully we can get that word through to Mankato
Aviation, but
that's where we want to end up.
There are differing opinions about what the arbitrator said. It was written in the arbitration that
this was in the syllabi. Severns:
Should the FAA check ride be part of the grade? But
that's a question for the future without prejudicing the
past. In that case, we would have
to go through the regular curriculum process. Trauger:
Yes, the past is the past. We are not
trying to prejudice the future. We are
looking at what would be the
best model for the future. I don't
think we are in disagreement.
[This action] was unfortunate due to timing.
Hopefully, if it looks like we are doing something other
than what we talked about, just give us a call.
Miller: I read the
arbitrator's decision again this morning and
there is confusion. My
communication was an attempt to get to the students in order to clarify
the
issue. Severns: It makes
sense if we say the students can get a grade without the FAA flight
test. And it is reasonable that we would
only
pay for a flight test if they went to Mankato Aviation.
Trauger: The contract does specify this
payment. Probably 95% of the
students will take the check ride through them, but de-linking the
check ride
from the grade is the best (solution).
Severns (to Miller): Does that work for you?
Miller: Absolutely, this makes sense. That
would be the most reasonable
approach. We need to make all
these pieces clear through syllabi that is very definite and that the
faculty
understand. We need clarity of
assessment. My goal is to advance
the integrity of the program.
Swanson: Can I have a
declarative sentence? Can (students) get a
non-FAA check ride
and get a grade in the class?
Trauger: Right now,
no. But that's what we want to
work through. Bohnenblust: Does it
specify "FAA check ride" in the contract?
Trauger: That's what we are
working on. I hope that they are
reasonable. We want to have good
relationships all around. Miller
and I are going to meet with them early next week to work this out. Miller: The contract does say "all
examinations." I think Mankato
Aviation's interpretation is that this includes FAA check rides. Swanson: Your position to them is that
we should be able to separate the FAA check ride from the grade?
Trauger:
Yes. Swanson: If they don't agree
with you, what do you do? Trauger:
I'll cross that bridge when we get there.
This won't be easy to negotiate, but I think we can get
something
positive. I would like to see a
lot more (of us) working together.
Mankato Aviation is not going to lose a lot by doing this. My read is that 90 to 95% of the
students will do this because they will save a couple of hundred bucks. Bohnenblust: When you have conflicting
interpretations of the contract, we would like to see our
Administration treat
our interpretation of the contract as at least as valid as Mankato
Aviation's
interpretations. Trauger: We will
have to talk about perception. Any
issue that you bring forward is valid for us to examine.
We need to see if it has a legal
basis. Miller: I would hope that
you would characterize my particular approach as one that does value
faculty. Bohnenblust: I will acknowledge
that in
meetings that there has been a clear effort by Miller to move the
program
forward. Miller: One of our
reviewers is an IFO member.
Meiers (to Trauger): Is it
your opinion that prior to your current
discussion, the letter from Miller was correct? Trauger:
Yes, we were trying to clarify and that is a true
interpretation of Mankato Aviation's position. Bohnenblust:
But this is now currently in dispute. Miller:
This letter was brought about
because a student did not use the process. Now
we can have a solid conversation about what we need to
legally operate from. Bohnenblust:
The arbitrator's decision is the legal base. There
is some kind of Attorney General interpretation (VP
Olsen mentioned this on Monday), will that take precedence? We would still be in dispute.
Trauger: I hope that we can take this
to the point of agreement with Mankato Aviation without an Attorney
General
opinion. Severns: In our meeting
with you and President Davenport, it is clear that we all share an
interest in
that what we do now be for the good of the students.
That's where we would like our focus to be.
Holmes: One of the basic
rules of contract interpretation is that
the ruling goes against the person who writes the clause in the first
place. You can clearly see the
history of this document in different versions. Trauger:
We might get to that point, but I want to work with
Mankato Aviation to avoid an Attorney General ruling.
We are sitting down and talking through these things now,
which didn't happen for a year and a half. There
is another meeting scheduled for 7 October 2003. Larsson: We need to keep in mind that the corporate
culture is
different than ours. We need to
get a meeting of minds. Trauger:
Yes, it really is surprising how different we are.
We need to spend a lot more time talking through these issues
when entering a legal document.
Miller: I have just started to establish a relationship with
Mankato
Aviation. We need to figure out
what we can do right away, and what are our future goals.
Keating: When you are discussing
this issue, I ask that you make a
clearer distinction between the FAA flight checks vs. what the check
rides
are. There is a difference.
Keating: Is this letter
going to go out? Miller: No.
Keating: This seemed like such a serious threat to students. There are some students who are
operating on principle. Miller:
The reason for that was that some students specifically defied the
policy. I tried to be very clear. I'm trying to learn the language.
The "phase" check leads up to the check
ride. Severns: We are just about
done with the students who were in the turmoil of the transition period. Trauger: We hope so but we keep dealing
with student issues. We have
meetings every two weeks but we are hopefully getting closer. Miller: There are a variety of
different situations. It looked to
me like we had new cases so I was trying to solve those.
Holmes: I echo what Keating said
regarding the tone (of the letter).
It almost invites students to go someplace else.
Bohnenblust extended thanks
to Vice President Trauger and Dean
Miller who then left the meeting.
Discussion continued.
Earle: In Nursing, the students have to take a huge exam. How did we get in the situation where
MSU pays for the student's exam?
We don't do this in Nursing.
Bohnenblust: We have a bad contract that was signed by three
"Interims." It is still in effect
for 2 -1/2 years. Keating: They
mentioned renegotiating a new contract, but that is a red flag. We should do a thorough assessment of
Mankato Aviation. I hope that the
Administration is paying attention to student complaints and not just
dismissing them to Robert's loyalty.
We should not talk about renegotiating this contract until we
get good
service from them. They have
treated students badly. Meiers:
How much do the (FAA check rides) cost?
Severns: $230. But we don't
know how much the examiner actually makes. Keating:
Under the old system it cost $28,000 for the
student in this program, but now it costs $38,000.
Bohnenblust: Are we satisfied that the Administration is
acting in good faith?
Severns: The Administration
has to make a decision by December when grades are due.
LeNoir: Why don't we just pay
Mankato Aviation for all check rides
even if the student gets them elsewhere?
Bohnenblust: Do we want to bring this up to Meet and Confer? Consensus: Yes. Holmes:
I don't think anything is going
to happen because the Administration won't stand up to Mankato Aviation. Another ripple, I heard of a student
who had a medical problem that was not accommodated.
3.
IFO
Task Forces -
4.
Need
Volunteers
5.
Confirm/Select
Appointments
Meiers/Sizemore moved to
approve all but Clink. Passed.
6.
Discussion
Items
7.
Informational
Items
The meeting
adjourned at
4:59 p.m.
Paul J. Hustoles
Recording Secretary